Oct 24, 2023
00:00:00 Dennis
A lot of folks kind of go through the educational process and
they think, "By the time I'm done with this, or by the time I get
my degree, or by the time I take that next step after graduation, I
will have it all figured out." And the truth is, that's generally
not the path, that generally the path is, you've got to kind of
touch different things and to have different exposure to different
concepts and professional aspects to really understand what your
passion is.
00:00:27 Christina
The workforce landscape is rapidly changing and educators and
their institutions need to keep up. Preparing students before they
enter the workforce to make our communities and businesses stronger
is at the core of getting an education. But we need to understand
how to change and adjust so that we can begin to project where
things are headed before we even get there. So, how do we begin to
predict the future?
00:00:52 Salvatrice
Hi, I'm Salvatrice Cummo, Vice President of Economic and
Workforce Development at Pasadena City College and host of this
podcast.
00:01:01 Christina
And I'm Christina Barsi, producer and co-host of this
podcast.
00:01:04 Salvatrice
And we are starting the conversation about the future of work.
We'll explore topics like how education can partner with industry,
how to be more equitable, and how to attain one of our highest
goals, more internship and PCC students in the workforce.
00:01:19 Salvatrice
We at Pasadena City College want to lead the charge in closing
the gap between what our students are learning and what the demands
of the workforce will be once they enter. This is a conversation
that impacts all of us, you the employers, the policy makers, the
educational institutions, and the community as a whole.
00:01:37 Christina
We believe change happens when we work together and it all
starts with having a conversation, I'm Christina Barsi.
00:01:45 Salvatrice
And I'm Salvatrice Cummo, and this is the Future of Work.
00:01:51 Salvatrice
Hi everyone and welcome back to the Future of Work Podcast, I am
your host, Dr. Salvatrice Cummo. Today, we'll be discussing and
defining sustainable infrastructure and the major role it plays in
all industry sectors. With that being said, we are excited to
welcome Dennis Rodriguez, Director of Business Development, Western
U.S. Design-Build, Governments and Environment for the Black &
Veatch Corporation.
00:02:17 Salvatrice
Dennis has a deep background in economic development, public
affairs, and business development. He is passionate about driving
thought leadership and innovation into the state and local public
sector market spaces with a focus on problem solving and
relationship development. Thank you for joining us, Dennis. That's
a big charge.
00:02:43 Dennis
Exactly. It's a mouthful.
00:02:45 Salvatrice
It sure is.
00:02:46 Dennis
Happy to be here and thank you for the invitation. This is
exciting and interested to kind of have this chat and just go
through the conversation about workforce development. We're doing
exciting things at Black & Veatch and just happy to chat
deeper.
00:03:00 Salvatrice
Excellent. There's a lot to unpack here but I wanted to really
start with, and just so you know, it's an opening question that I
pose to all of my guests because it's important to me. And I'm just
curious, and I know that our listeners are curious, but if you
could tell us a little bit about your career journey and really
what led you to Black & Veatch Corporation?
00:03:21 Dennis
It's a great question. I think I don't have a typical kind of
career journey. I think when you think about careers and especially
with an engineering company, you kind of think that most folks are
kind of on a path direct to some future kind of engineering
opportunity. And I think with me, I've just jumped and kind of
zigged and zagged throughout my career and it's been interesting to
kind of look back and reflect on it.
00:03:45 Dennis
But essentially, I grew up in Los Angeles and ended up at Cal
State Northridge University where I got a degree in creative
writing, which has nothing to do with engineering but is always a
good fundamental kind of background. I think communicating and
writing things effectively is a key piece of being a professional
in a future sense. And so, I think for me that's important to just
ensure that was my foundation.
00:04:09 Dennis
From there, I went on to law school at the University of Notre
Dame, which also has not much to do with engineering in terms of
traditional paths and that sort of thing. So, I ended up in law
school, graduated, and my first position outside of law school was
basically working for the Los Angeles City Council.
00:04:26 Dennis
So, I worked for an elected official, a gentleman named Bernard
Parks, and I spent the better part of a decade with his office and
started at an entry position, ended up as an economic development
deputy for him, which is kind of his right-hand person for major
projects and major policies.
00:04:43 Dennis
From there, I left his office and jumped into the private
sector, which is kind of the leap into the path that I kind of took
into this current position. Ended up with a company called Siemens,
which is a global powerhouse in terms of product engineering. I
think at one point they had close to 400,000 employees on the
roster, so just a massive company multinational.
00:05:05 Dennis
And so, what I did with that company is I did business
development and I basically learned the company and then developed
business back with major cities throughout the west coast. So, that
was my charge with them. And essentially, I did that for about 10
years.
00:05:20 Dennis
Following that position, I kind of found my way to Black &
Veatch and currently doing business development for them in
relation to their design-build group, which is a different way that
government kind of goes to procure opportunities in the
marketplace.
00:05:35 Dennis
And so, I've been with this company for about two years and just
having a great time or looking at a bunch of interesting projects
with just important infrastructure implications and that sort of
thing. So, not a traditional path, not a straightforward path of
zig and zag throughout the process. And it's been a journey, but it
isn't anything I would replace, I've thoroughly enjoyed the
process.
00:05:57 Salvatrice
For sure. I think the majority of us experience that. Like we go
in with one mindset and then we grow and we have experiences and
opportunities are brought forth to us and we understand that our
skills and our talents can be leveraged in other sectors and other
corporations and companies and things like that.
00:06:16 Salvatrice
And so, I mean, that's my favorite question to ask by the way
because for me, it helps understand who you are, but it also helps
me understand even some of the approaches that we take in
problem-solving, in developing new programs and building
partnerships, it tells me a lot about the approach. Thank you so
much for sharing that with me.
00:06:40 Salvatrice
And today's topic is really about sustainable infrastructure, so
we'll live there for a minute in this conversation. And you
mentioned it in your intro about sustainable infrastructure and
that kind of is a universal theme or thread I think throughout your
entire career.
00:06:56 Salvatrice
You kind of touched on it here and there, but now with the
emphasis here with Black & Veatch, just really kind of tell me a
little bit about sustainable infrastructure and why you personally
think it's so important for our future needs.
00:07:12 Dennis
When you think about infrastructure, we have it in different,
various parts of our communities and our cities and our states and
all these different components. It used to be built in a
traditional fashion, so if you built a bridge, it was a bridge. If
you built a pipeline, it's a pipeline.
00:07:27 Dennis
I think the way we're looking at things these days is how do we
make these static, traditional pieces of infrastructure smarter,
more capable of transmitting data and information, more capable of
understanding what kind of status they're in.
00:07:43 Dennis
So, if it's something that's deteriorating, if it's something
that's got a long shelf life that's all used for information for
people who are looking at maintaining this and operating these
pieces of infrastructure. So, I think infrastructure really has
grown into that kind of capacity over time and it's exciting.
00:08:00 Dennis
If you think about a pipeline, like I mentioned, you can build a
pipeline, you can kind of dig parts of the earth and kind of put
the pipeline in place. But these days we're attaching sensors and
we're attaching data transmission and we're attaching things that
would feed back to some kind of central location to, like I said,
identify what issues might be taking place if there's some kind of
leak detection that needs to be understood.
00:08:25 Dennis
And so, that's all just critical parts of the process to make
sure that our infrastructure stays in place for long-term.
Infrastructure, also, in today's concept when you solve for it or
you plan for something, you've got to look at future challenges.
And it's impossible to future-proof, but I think in as much as we
can plan to future-proof, I think that's the way we should be
looking at infrastructure. To me, that goes into making something
sustainable for a long-term.
00:08:55 Salvatrice
So, tell me a little bit more about that. What exactly are we
looking for when you say we're looking at it to be more
future-proof? If you could give me an example, that'd be great.
00:09:06 Dennis
The amount of investment and the amount of initial inertia that
needs to take place to develop a piece of infrastructure. You look
at the California high-speed train, for example, the amount of
inertia in political momentum that kind of goes into making that
come to fruition, it's massive.
00:09:25 Dennis
And so, in as much as we can think about what that system looks
like in 20 years, in 50 years, in 100 years, and it's still
delivering what it needs to deliver to the folks that are using it
in that time span, that's kind of future-proofing. So, we want to
make sure the infrastructure is in place, it's useful and it's
serving your purpose long-term. That's at the top of the list in
terms of infrastructure, making sure it's a long-term
commitment.
00:09:52 Salvatrice
It's important that you mentioned our traditional mindset about
what infrastructure is or what it was and what it actually really
is now. And we really appreciate you saying that, that it's so much
more than what we traditionally think infrastructure to look like.
But infrastructure now, and what I'm hearing is that it's not
exactly like a tangible thing where you can see it live. It's
around everything that you mentioned, the technology behind
infrastructure design, specifically sustainable infrastructure
design.
00:10:26 Salvatrice
And so, what led me to think is, first of all, I didn't realize
that Black & Veatch was 100-year-old company. When we were starting
to do a little bit of research about the company, I genuinely
didn't know that. And so, I was hugely surprised in a good way
because we don't see companies last that long anymore and there's a
reason why they are, and it's because what you just said.
00:10:47 Salvatrice
Like thinking about future, thinking about innovation, thinking
about how is this going to sustain us in the long run? So, I'm
wondering if you can share how the company is investing in
cutting-edge innovation that's essential. Could you share how
really Black & Veatch has been able to become 100-year-old company,
and what is the secret sauce to that you think?
00:11:18 Dennis
To take the roof off of the company and kind of dig into it, I
think is very interesting. One of the things that fascinated me
about joining this company a few years back is the fact that it's a
hundred percent employee-owned company.
00:11:30 Salvatrice
Okay.
00:11:30 Dennis
I've been a part of different career paths and I worked for a
municipal government, which was massive. I worked for Siemens,
which was massive, but this is the first time working for a company
that I had an ownership stake in.
00:11:43 Dennis
And so, I think that essentially does drive a lot of our
innovation and kind of approach to the marketplace because at the
end of the day, we want to turn this company over to the next
generation of professionals, that's a huge thing that we focus on
within the company. We want to be good stewards and make sure this
continues forward.
00:12:00 Dennis
So, not just making this 100-year-old company but making this
150-year-old company and a 200-year-old company in the future. But
if you think about that from a marketer approach, we're on the
forefront of looking at sustainable infrastructure, infrastructure
in general. We focus on power infrastructure, water infrastructure,
telecommunication infrastructure. Those are our kind of three main
buckets.
00:12:21 Dennis
And so, as we dig into the marketplace, it's just critical that
we're at the forefront of the leading innovations that clients are
looking for. We're digging into training components and workforce
development, which I think we'll talk about here momentarily, to
really identify what the trends in the market are looking at, what
kind of things are helping us to future-proof our design and
construction of these components of infrastructure. I mean, all
that is critical.
00:12:50 Dennis
And we do a lot of self-evaluation as I think any successful
company should do. So, the self-evaluation is a key piece of it.
We're always kind of going through a review process to make sure if
we're taking a leading edge into something into the marketplace, is
that the right leading edge? Or is that something that we think was
an asset to the market and to our clients.
00:13:11 Dennis
And so, I think those are all kind of critical approaches to
making sure we're at the forefront of that stuff. And I say all
that and it's also important to mention that as an owner in the
company, these are the things that I think through at night to kind
of make sure that I'm taking the right steps around decisions to go
through the process to make sure the company's in good shape.
00:13:31 Salvatrice
I think there's a lot to be said about companies that are owned
and operated by the employees. Just hearing you now explain that,
explain how this 100-year-old company still continues to be on the
cutting edge and is wanting and has a desire to live longer, I
should say, or be in business longer, there's a lot to be said.
Because you have a vested interest in the success and the vitality
of the company.
00:13:59 Dennis
Absolutely.
00:14:00 Salvatrice
That's really, really telling. Well, along that same thread of
the company being on the cutting edge of innovation as it relates
to sustainable infrastructure, we've already underscored that it's
evolving. We've underscored that there's many variables to
sustainable infrastructure, and there's also other ways of design
thinking around it.
00:14:20 Salvatrice
Could you share a little bit about how the company is keeping
ahead on training the existing workforce for this evolving
infrastructure design as we think about it for the future, how is
the company investing in training and the future needs of our
workforce?
00:14:44 Dennis
So, there's a few different components to this. I think you can
look at stuff that we do in-house. You can also look at external
kind of training mechanisms. In-house, we have a program called our
EDGE Program, which is basically a rotational program for young
professionals. And I think a lot of good top-level companies kind
of employ things of this nature.
00:15:04 Dennis
So, you take a young professional, maybe a year or two out of
college, they can jump into a program like this and really touch
base with different parts of the company. So, they're kind of doing
a 9 to 18-month stints in different sections of the company,
different departments. They're looking at a whole variety of
different concepts.
00:15:22 Dennis
They could look at our power plant construction and design. At
some point they could look at an advanced water treatment plant, at
some point they could look at some telecommunications or electric
vehicle charging infrastructure project. So, the goal is to kind of
give them exposure to different parts, and at the end of the day,
just identify if they have a passion for one particular focus.
00:15:42 Dennis
I think for any young person kind of coming out of college,
that's a key ingredient to this whole thing, that's part of the
secret sauce. Because what you want to do in your career is find
something that is of keen interest to you. And if it is and you're
passionate about it, you're going to you stay up after work
thinking about it and doing research.
00:16:01 Dennis
You're going to network with professionals who kind of share a
similar passion. You're going to educate yourself on the things
that you would get exposure to in terms of that kind of focus
point. So, that's a key piece of all this is just to make sure
you've got that passionate thing you're digging into.
00:16:17 Dennis
We also do a lot of in-house training. We have a bunch of great
programs with Black & Veatch that keep us on the path in terms of
keeping up with professional credits and that sort of thing. We
also look at external kind of training impacts and those are
professional organizations that dig into things that we're
passionate about in our particular field.
00:16:37 Dennis
For myself, on the water design built side, there's a
Design-Build Institute of America that's one organization we dig
into. You go to these meetings and you can kind of talk to the
professionals, you talk to the experts in the field and create that
network and expand your knowledge base and expand your network.
00:16:53 Dennis
So, I think when you kind of wrap that all into a package,
that's how you make sure the workforce is moving in the right
direction and keeping up with what's shaping up.
00:17:04 Dennis
And also, quite frankly, a lot of that is thought leadership.
So, as a part of all these aspects, we want to introduce and be
thinking through how we're bringing thought leadership to these
conversations. And so, that's kind of key thing we are focused
on.
00:17:18 Salvatrice
The EDGE Program is an internal program. Is it in partnership
with any other organization or is it-
00:17:26 Dennis
It's a hundred percent internal and it's basically an internal
rotational program. We do partner with other organizations and we
can talk about that also. We partner with educational locations as
well but just for the EDGE purposes, some people have a very direct
path that wasn't my career, and that's fine.
00:17:44 Dennis
I think if you've always focused on electrical engineering and
that's the path you want to head down, I mean, that's one aspect to
kind of get to your passion. If you're not quite sure when you get
out of college and you join a company like Black & Veatch, you can
sign up for it and just kind of make sure you get exposure to
different things to see what might be a passion point, and that's
the exciting part of it.
00:18:04 Salvatrice
When I think about just our partnerships that we have with
industry professionals or industry partners, companies,
organizations, et cetera, one of the elements that we lean on
industry for is what exactly do you need from us in order to
prepare the next engineer, the next architect, the next fill in the
blank.
00:18:28 Salvatrice
And so, I'm wondering if there's an example that you can share
or maybe you haven't explored it just yet, of what might a program
look like where we're preparing the next generation or the next
workforce, the next talent cohort, I'm going to call them that, is
there a way or has there been a thought around how do we build
stronger partnerships with academia so that the dollars that are
being invested are equally distributed.
00:18:56 Dennis
So, I mean, to run an in-house program cost a ton of money, we
know that. We also know that there's incredible return on that
investment, there really is. But I'm wondering if there's a way for
academia to kind of supplement that so that we are properly
training that next generation, that next workforce. And it supports
the passion that Black & Veatch has on upskilling, on training, on
helping the workforce find their passions in this space.
00:19:32 Dennis
I think there's a natural nexus between academia and a company
like Black & Veatch. And in fact, our company's headquartered in
Kansas City. There's two Kansas cities which I discovered when I
joined the company, but at the end of the day, we've partnered with
the University of Kansas. That's obviously a very close contact
point for us within the company.
00:19:51 Dennis
We've put together programs and they kind of focus on project
management, they focus on construction management. They focus on
different aspects of things we would need to keep our workforce
trained at a high level and kind of supplementing what we're seeing
from a real-life world example with academic support and kind of
credential support and that sort of thing.
00:20:13 Dennis
So, that's just one example I think to me, I think academia has
to have these conversations with companies like ours to identify
what things are these companies focused on what are the core
competencies of your company? For Black & Veatch, it's design,
engineering, construction. We also have a ton of administrative
needs in terms of throughout the company.
00:20:35 Dennis
I was talking to my boss last night and we were talking about
the construction management aspect. Once we design a project and
then we start to construct the project, you've got a huge workforce
that comes out to kind of manage that construction process.
00:20:51 Dennis
And you're talking about early work packages to secure supplies
and materials. You're talking about supply chain issues. You're
talking about all these things that we look at from a global
trending perspective that we need to have focused professionals
in-house to make sure we're managing it correctly so that the
project stays on track and stays on budget.
00:21:10 Dennis
So, just making sure we're talking and making sure you guys are
focused in on what companies do. So, if there is that investment
from your perspective, you can make sure it's something that you'll
think there'll be a benefit for long-term.
00:21:26 Salvatrice
I think for us, the most effective programs that we've seen for
both industry and ourselves is ones that are formalized in some
capacity. And there's an agreement, everyone knows their roles and
responsibilities. Everyone knows the investment of dollars that are
being made.
00:21:40 Salvatrice
Those are the ones that are successful, but they're also the
ones that require a ton of attention, not just in resources but in
human capital that sometimes we find ourselves spread super thin.
Our teams are starting to spread super thin.
00:22:00 Salvatrice
Because I'm just thinking about even our conversation to be held
at the conference, at the Future of Work Conference coming up on
October 26th is the need for, and the state's direction on more
apprenticeships and focusing the resources and the dollars around
apprenticeship programming.
00:22:18 Salvatrice
I'm just going to of plant that seed because I think at a later
time, I'd really would want to explore that with you on how could
an institution like ourselves or any institution formalize that
with the company like Black & Veatch. And it sounds like it's
project-based. So, maybe that's the approach, maybe that's the
pilot, that's the model, but I'd love to explore that with you at
some point.
00:22:41 Dennis
Salvatrice, I think having grown up in politics or worked at
City Hall for a long time, I think one of the things I always think
through is you need to have a political champion to kind of get
this uplifted and off the ground.
00:22:52 Dennis
I don't think that's any different here. I think on the academic
side, you need a champion, on the business side, you need a
champion, and those folks need to come together and talk about what
the needs are, what the support looks like, and how to formalize
that process.
00:23:07 Dennis
I mean, I think, to me that's kind of the basic mechanisms to
putting something like this in place and it's not easy. I think
that takes time, and it takes a lot of conversation and I think
that's a heavy lift. And so, it doesn't always have to be obvious
and apparent on the outset, but at some point in that conversation,
that nexus and that connection and that cross benefit for each
group has to kind of get flushed out.
00:23:32 Dennis
And it starts with this, it starts with these conversation, it
starts with us getting to know each other and kind of making sure
that we're a part of ... you guys are looking at from our
perspective to identify if there's something of benefit for us to
kind of dig into with you all. So, I think this is the starting
point.
00:23:55 Salvatrice
Great. Thank you. I'm going to shift gears just a little bit. I
want to ask the question about aspiring professionals in this space
of sustainable infrastructure. Our listener, our professional
students, faculty, so we have a real nice diverse group of
listeners. And I always like to ask the question about what advice
would you give to our student who's an aspiring professional in
this space? Just any nuggets of information that you can
provide.
00:24:26 Dennis
There's so much advice to kind of think through it and-
00:24:30 Salvatrice
How do we narrow it down?
00:24:33 Dennis
I like to think of myself as a young man, but the truth is I've
been doing this for close to 25 years and I think I touched on it
earlier, finding your passion. I think that's a key piece of it.
And to find your passion, you've got to touch different things.
You've got to touch different groups, you've got to network, you've
got to push things to failure sometimes. You've got to fail in your
professional career.
00:24:54 Dennis
But when you fail, it's a learning process and you're kind of
falling forward as you go through that process. But a lot of folks
struggle with just connecting with folks. I think finding
professional organizations and people that you can connect with to
go through this process and stay curious. I think being curious is
a key part of all this.
00:25:13 Dennis
You've got to go into it with a mindset of, "I'm trying to learn
something. I don't have to learn it in this exact moment, but if I
keep at it and it's something I'm interested in, over time, I'm
going to really be able to master this part of what I'm focused
on."
00:25:27 Dennis
And I think, for me, I joined the City Council when I was 23,
24-years-old. And immediately I fell in love with the
infrastructure work that the city of Los Angeles was developing. If
it was a train set, if it was a traffic sign, if it was a variety
of different components. I thought working on stuff that improved
people's quality of life was something that gave me
satisfaction.
00:25:54 Dennis
I think finding that as a young professional, it may not be
obviously apparent from the jump, but if you can find that over
time, I think you're going to have a long and fruitful career.
Because once you dig into that, I think you can base your whole
career based on that passion. And that's what I've done with
infrastructure.
00:26:13 Dennis
Every career point I've had has touched infrastructure in some
way, shape or form, I continue to be fascinated by it. I put my
learning cap on, on a daily basis. I never want to think there's
something I can't pick up or something I can't learn today. And so,
I kind of go through the day with that mindset, so.
00:26:31 Salvatrice
Well, speaking of curiosity, because curiosity does lead to new
discoveries and we do have the Future of Work Conference coming up
on October 26th. What could we look forward to be curious about in
your conversations and your thoughts? And just some highlights,
like what can we look forward to hearing from you at the
conference?
00:26:54 Dennis
Salvatrice, I think it's a little bit of a combination of what
I've mentioned so far. I think staying curious, I think finding
your passion is really something I'd like to leave behind. I think
a lot of folks kind of go through the educational process and they
think, "By the time I'm done with this, or by the time I get my
degree, or by the time I take that next step after graduation, I
will have it all figured out."
00:27:15 Dennis
And the truth is, that's generally not the path, generally the
path is, you've got to kind of touch different things and to have
different exposure to different concepts and professional aspects
to really understand what your passion is.
00:27:29 Dennis
And so, I think the takeaway I'd like to leave folks, is to try
to go find that passion. There's a host of different things you can
kind of do to dig into that but at the end of the day, you're going
to know what it is when you find it.
00:27:39 Dennis
And finding it, I think is a critical concept because if you
can't find it, don't mean to sound cliche, but if you find your
passion, your career is not going to be work, it's going to be fun.
I think that's what we're all trying to obtain, is having fun at
work.
00:27:51 Salvatrice
I think that is certainly exactly what we're all trying to get.
We're all trying to get there on a daily basis for sure.
00:27:56 Salvatrice
Well, I'm going to plant a seed with you to kind of conclude
this conversation, Dennis. For the conference, I'm going to be
curious about asking you questions around system design.
Specifically our system and how it integrates with the private
sector. How are we building stronger, formalized programming? And
really kind of digging deep to the barriers around that too. Like,
we have to be real, we can't have these ... I mean, you mentioned
it earlier, like the champions that you need.
00:28:30 Salvatrice
But let's also talk about real barriers to this work and why it
takes us so long to do it. And then what's needed? What's needed to
solve the barrier issue? Is it policy? Is it people, is it money?
What is it? So, I'm going to plant that seed with you, if that's
alright.
00:28:53 Dennis
It's been planted and I'll be sure to make sure I'm ready to
kind of talk through that. But just to piggyback on that, I think
it's all the things you mentioned. It's people, it's policy and
politics and it also is financial. I mean, that's always the
challenge with any kind of partnership. So, we will dig into it
deeper at the conference. I'm very much looking forward to the
conversation and hopefully, I think this was a productive
conversation.
00:29:16 Salvatrice
Absolutely.
00:29:17 Dennis
The takeaway for today is find your passion. The takeaway for
the panel will be find your passion.
00:29:24 Salvatrice
I love that. And with that, we conclude this conversation.
Dennis, this is really great. It's been a lovely conversation. If a
listener wants to connect with you, what's the best way to do it?
And then we'll plop it into the show notes.
00:29:36 Dennis
So, LinkedIn is always an excellent way. Hopefully, you guys can
show that link on the notes. Email is also a preferred method of
communication. Email is my last name, which is
RodriguezDF@bb.com.
00:29:54 Salvatrice
Very good, thanks. We'll put that in the show notes. Look
forward to seeing you again live in person on the 26th October here
at Pasadena City College. We'll see you soon.
00:30:02 Dennis
Looking forward to it. Thank you.
00:30:06 Salvatrice
Thank you for listening to The Future of Work Podcast. Make sure
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clicking on the website link below in the show notes to
collaborate, partner, or just chat about all things future of work.
We'd love to connect with you. All of us here at the future of work
and Pasadena City College, wish you safety and wellness.