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Transcript- Episode 119: How Partnering with Education Improves Long Lasting Employee Relationships With Donald Bradburn, Director Of HR Strategy Design, Workforce Planning & Analytics At Kaiser Permanente Episode 119

May 7, 2024

00:00:00 Donald

As we look at how we have a relationship with our employees, traditionally, American businesses, it's transactional. And what I hear younger generations saying and what I see in the workforce is they want a relationship. So, managers and leaders have to shift their mind to be in it's not a transaction, but it's actually, we want a relationship.

                

00:00:24 Christina

The workforce landscape is rapidly changing and educators and their institutions need to keep up. Preparing students before they enter the workforce to make our communities and businesses stronger is at the core of getting an education.

                

00:00:37 Christina

But we need to understand how to change and adjust so that we can begin to project where things are headed before we even get there. So, how do we begin to predict the future?

                

00:00:49 Salvatrice

Hi, I'm Salvatrice Cummo, Vice President of Economic and Workforce Development at Pasadena City College, and host of this podcast.

                

00:00:57 Christina

And I'm Christina Barsi, producer and co-host of this podcast.

                

00:01:01 Salvatrice

And we are starting the conversation about the future of work. We'll explore topics like how education can partner with industry, how to be more equitable, and how to attain one of our highest goals; more internships and PCC students in the workforce.

                

00:01:15 Salvatrice

We at Pasadena City College want to lead the charge in closing the gap between what our students are learning and what the demands of the workforce will be once they enter. This is a conversation that impacts all of us. You, the employers, the policymakers, the educational institutions, and the community as a whole.

                

00:01:35 Christina

We believe change happens when we work together and it all starts with having a conversation. I'm Christina Barsi.

                

00:01:43 Salvatrice

And I'm Salvatrice Cummo, and this is the Future of Work.

                

00:01:48 Salvatrice

Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Future of Work Podcast. I am your host Salvatrice Cummo. Today, we'll be talking about workforce planning and development and what the outlook for the next generation of workforce will look like.

                

00:02:00 Salvatrice

We will also talk about what employers can do to make sure they keep their employees coming back in this fast-paced world with high rates of turnover. With that said, we are excited to welcome back Don Bradburn, who has previously joined us for the Future of Work Conference. Our first one, in fact.

                

00:02:19 Salvatrice

Don is the Director of HR Strategy, Design, Workforce Planning and Analytics for Southern California and Hawaii markets for Kaiser Permanente. With over 12 years of experience in human resources and workforce planning and development, Don understands the need to support operational departments and the importance of timely, responsive, and accurate advice from the HR staff.

                

00:02:42 Salvatrice

As an HR director, he developed his staff to understand the primary role of human resources is to assist managers, supervisors, and employees with problem-solving. Welcome back, Don.

                

00:02:55 Donald

Oh, thank you, Salvatrice for having me back. It's a pleasure.

                

00:02:58 Salvatrice

Love it. As I was sharing the intro, I thought, oh my gosh, that's right. Don was our first guest at the Future of Work Conference back in 2019, right?

                

00:03:07 Donald

Yeah, it was the fall before everything took a turn.

                

00:03:10 Salvatrice

Took an immediate right-hand turn, right?

                

00:03:13 Donald

Right.

                

00:03:13 Salvatrice

Well, the Future of Work conferences, one that we are so proud to always host every year. And some of our audience members might know who you are, others may not. So, I think it might be really a good idea to share with our audience what led you to this work in human resources and workforce planning, and analytics, and why is this something that continues to really be an interest to you?

                

00:03:38 Donald

Actually, I always start off by telling people human resources was something I always had sworn I would never do. For anybody who's in their college classes saying "I will never," that could become the exact opposite of your life, just because that's the way paths take you.

                

00:03:52 Donald

But originally, when I was studying, I was looking in business and talking about finance and accounting, and those were things that drove it, but you also know I served in the military, and one of the last assignments I had was doing training and training and development.

                

00:04:03 Donald

And that actually brought out a certain part of me that I really kind of connected with helping people grow and progress. And then as I transitioned out of the military, it kind of led a natural path into human resources and training and development, organizational development.

                

00:04:19 Donald

And from there, it kind of grew. And I mentioned the math part of it and the finance and accounting simply because it leads back to where I finally come with the workforce planning and analytics. I think over the time, I've had some experiences that really drove and focus kind of my approach in HR, on workforce, on strategy, workforce development, workforce planning.

                

00:04:39 Donald

And one of those, I think that sticks out to me that kind of really drives it was in 2008 when the financial crisis kind of happened, I was in Southern California with the county of San Diego and their department of health and human services. And in 2009, they were going to do a reduction and there was planned reduction for about 300 staff. And there was a piece of me having grown up kind of in the military, you don't leave anybody behind and you want to make sure that you do right by everybody.

                

00:05:05 Donald

And all I said was "If this is what we're going to do, then let's talk about it now. Give me a year," because as I looked at the numbers and I looked at turnover, I looked at retirements, and promotions, demotions, all those things - and I looked at all those factors and I said we can place these 300 people if we just turn internally.

                

00:05:22 Donald

And there may be times where we need to go external. But if these are the types of jobs we're filling, we need to do it internally and we need to shift our workforce and keep them engaged. Because it stems from a couple of ways. One, I believe you have to do right by people and you don't leave them behind. Everybody has that piece.

                

00:05:39 Donald

From an organizational perspective at that point, it was a challenging time. You know, there was a lot of people, at least one member of the family had lost a job after that crisis. And to put somebody out that we could repurpose (for lack of a better word), it just didn't seem right. And then there was the fact that you want to make sure that you address what I would call survivor guilt.

                

00:05:59 Donald

Anytime you do a reduction in force, the people who are left behind had connections with the people who were gone and it does drag on morale. The good thing was we were able to do it. We placed all 300 people and that kind of drove a commitment to say, we have to do better in human resources when we look at the workforce; how we bring them in, how we treat them, why they're here, and how we help them transition to retirement.

                

00:06:22 Donald

And so, those are some pieces that really stuck out to me, as what drives my passion for the work. I often share the other piece is I came from a low-income community in the Midwest. I didn't know it at the time, but I got an internship using what they called JTPA (Joint Training Partnership Act), I think is what it stood for, which is the predecessor of funds that still trickle down today.

                

00:06:44 Donald

That gave me a sense of work ethic, it made me have a sense of purpose. And so, I also see it as giving back in that regard that I once benefited from an internship with these monies, and now, I have the ability to kind of bring that to life for other people.

                

00:06:59 Salvatrice

That's beautiful. You know, we use these terms, HR strategy, workforce planning, all of these technical workforce terms that are very fluid in my humble opinion, depending on the industry sector, depending on who you're speaking with. Through your lens, the terminology of workforce planning, analytics, HR strategy, what does it really entail? What are all the weeds involved in that? And what does that look like for you?

                

00:07:24 Donald

It's a very all-encompassing thing. And even some days, I go, "Wait a minute ..." Like we seem to be shifting in what we do, but it's really just adapting to the current environment and analyzing our workforce on a micro level and looking at kind of what movements we're seeing as far as turnover is a driver in there.

                

00:07:40 Donald

Also, we have in Southern California market, we call it a churn. And this is where people are moving from one service area to another maybe to be closer to home, but it causes a disruption in the workplace. And so, we kind of try to like to be able to manage that. And it also, for our line of work, it gets to that continuity of care because you don't want different people showing up every day at the patient's bedside. And so, that plays into it.

                

00:08:03 Donald

We also look at when we expand in the market to try to identify what are our true needs. And an example of that, as we are getting ready to open an MOB, a medical office building, sorry about that - I start using acronyms. And the question is, is we know when we want to staff, but we don't know like how many of those are external or how many people will want to move closer to home from where they currently work.

                

00:08:29 Donald

And so, if we work in doing some predictive analytics to kind of say where pieces might fall, because even though it's opening in Marietta, the reality is the end state maybe that there're more vacancies in Riverside or Moreno Valley, or even San Diego where people are saying, "Hey, like I live in Marietta and I want to be closer to home" because all of the changes in the environment with COVID-19, one thing didn't change; people like short commutes. So, that's been a constant through there.

                

00:08:55 Donald

So, we do those from the analytics perspective and we try to kind of keep our pulse on what the needs of the business are to deliver the service. And the strategy piece really ties into how do we fill those gaps? And specifically with HR, it's really, how do we fill in those talent gaps? But it also can be how do we identify and fix performance gaps on an organizational level?

                

00:09:19 Salvatrice

Yeah. You got me thinking, is there a specific entity or who or what entity I should say, are you looking at for the information you need to do some of that strategy work? Yes, you're looking internally, but I have to believe you're looking externally too, especially with all the stuff happening out in the world. Who are you following that kind of helps inform those decisions for you?

                

00:09:39 Donald

That's actually a great call-out because I didn't go to the macro level, which is really driving a lot of what we see today and a lot of the work we do. And I'm sure we'll get into it a lot more later, but we're looking at we have a partnership with Gartner Group. They provide a lot of healthcare-related statistics, and then we also work with the American Hospital Association of Southern California.

                

00:09:59 Donald

But we also work with our education partners, the people that we're working with, and seeing what they're seeing on the ground as far as ... specifically one of those is enrollments and programs. And that sets the table for how we look at what our future holds because we know there's a growing demand. Internally, we see what exits happen, but the piece that you don't always have and you have to go external is to say, what do those enrollments look like? And are we going to produce and graduate enough talent to fill those pieces?

                

00:10:33 Donald

And so, yeah, that's a very good call-out. We look to a lot of people for benchmarking about where we are against other organizations in our field, but also, to education partners to see like what could be the future gaps and what demand do we need to have?

                

00:10:48 Salvatrice

So, it's interesting, you're looking at educational institutions as one of the partners, as one source of information. And then we're looking to you. So, it's like we're doing this exchange of information, which is really helpful because we can tell you through our perspective and our lens what we're seeing as the ask and the demands from our participants, our students, our adult learners.

                

00:11:09 Salvatrice

And then you're sharing with us really kind of the exact pulse and so that we can adapt to what you're facing and ensuring that we're filling the talent gaps or trainings, or fill in the blank - anything that you need, we can help. We can certainly help with that.

                

00:11:24 Salvatrice

You mentioned adapting to the current environment. Like that's really the theme across strategy work and planning, and with the support of the analytics is adaptation. And there's been an enormous amount of disruption the last few years.

                

00:11:39 Salvatrice

I cannot even imagine the level of intensity of those disruptions within an institution like Kaiser, both at a corporate level and a hospital level. What major changes really have been made in the way that we look to the future of work, as far as the future workforce, and what mindset change there's been given all these disruptions?

                

00:12:02 Donald

I think we just live in a disruptive world right now, if I was just to be completely honest. But the last few years have been very challenging. You know, for us at Kaiser, we had always embraced this virtual visit with physicians, and some of them were just done via voice or phone, but we really started upping the game as lockdowns occurred.

                

00:12:23 Donald

And the idea was there's still people with chronic conditions that need access to healthcare . And so, what we really started moving more towards was these virtual visits, where they were video conferences between the doctor and the patient.

                

00:12:37 Donald

And then that took a change in what people had to perfect as far as their skills, because it's one thing when you're talking to somebody face-to-face and you can see all the nonverbals of a patient who maybe is going through a very stressful time to doing it virtually.

                

00:12:52 Donald

So, there is pieces that even though it becomes more real than just a phone call, you have to tighten up your soft skills and be able to read the room, so to speak, and understand what's going on and how to carefully probe for the patient to provide more information over that.

                

00:13:07 Donald

So, I think there was a big shift there and how we look at it. We had a lot of administrative work where people were actually just, we went virtual being, I being one of them. And even that as simple as it sounds sometimes, can become with its own set of complications about how you keep that connectedness with your teams and with others and with operations.

                

00:13:27 Donald

So, there was a lot in that space, but I think what's really disruptive in healthcare has been with the response to the pandemic and being that it was so broad geographically, we saw nurses and healthcare people moving more to this travel, what we call travel nursing and travel staffing.

                

00:13:46 Donald

And so, they were basically more kind of like the gig economy and healthcare came together. And so, we saw people moving towards that. At first, people, I think say that was really kind of about compensation, but as I reflect on it, I see and hear younger generations talking about what they want out of the workforce with more flexibility, they want to have a little more ownership.

                

00:14:06 Donald

I can see where that business model actually appeals to them. And I think that requires organizations like ours to start to think about how do we provide that same flexibility to the worker, even in a healthcare setting because clearly, not everybody can work remote when they need to be by the patient's bedside.

                

00:14:24 Donald

But do we have to go with the virtual or remote? Or is there something else about how we deliver services that can be repackaged so that it's more attractive to younger generations for one; and two, how do we package it so that maybe people who were thinking of retiring, maybe still have a commitment, still want to work, but they don't want to work the traditional 40-hour week or 12 hour days as we often see in patient care settings.

                

00:14:52 Donald

So, I think there's been disruption, there's been some change. I've seen shifts in leaders who have said absolutely no remote, actually go to more flexible where they're willing to work with the employees to say maybe on these days for that type of task, you can do it elsewhere, but other times, you come here.

                

00:15:09 Donald

So, I think the conversation still continues. I think it probably should get broader and not just focus on the context of the location that people are at, but also, the time, the days, the hours that we ask of people. You start to see that there's a shift going on in the workplace where people like to have a little bit more work-life balance.

                

00:15:29 Salvatrice

And I imagine it has to be challenging because there's a level of care or there's a level of promise through Kaiser's mission and servicing and caring for their patients. So, it's like that delicate dance between repackaging, what you were sharing earlier - repackaging the job. I'm going to just say it that way, and still delivering the level of care that Kaiser's super proud about. But I have to believe that's hard. I don't want to be in your shoes right now.

                

00:15:56 Donald

That is definitely a challenge for that very reason, because first and foremost, the commitment is to the member.

                

00:16:03 Salvatrice

I like that you call them a member and not a patient, I like that. I picked up on that. Well, through that, through addressing these and seeing where the opportunities are and adapting, is there one issue or challenge that rises to the top when we speak about this fluidness within our workforce and the adaptation? Maybe just not through the lens of Kaiser that you're seeing, but kind of across the board in the healthcare sector, might there be one?

                

00:16:29 Donald

I'm going to call it one, but it's got two sides to it. So, if I can use some flexibility here myself.

                

00:16:35 Salvatrice

For sure.

                

00:16:36 Donald

And I think we sit here and the problem is we have a critical nursing shortage, not just in Southern California, not in California - across this country, there is a critical nurse shortage that's only getting worse. You know, I think when I had joined the Future of Work Conference in 2019, I had mentioned there was a brewing talent war and I think some people thought that was a little dramatic to call it that.

                

00:17:01 Donald

But here we are a few years later and you see, you can't turn on the TV, open a newspaper and not see that employers are struggling to keep, to retain, to attract talent. So, I don't know what else to call it, because I'll tell you, that talent acquisition folks feel like it's a blood bath. They are probably the hardest job there is right now.

                

00:17:21 Donald

But it's twofold in the sense that I want to go bigger because it gets to the heart of the problem is, and I think it holds true for other occupations, but it's really important for healthcare, as we have these factors as aging population, we have baby boomers that are retiring. I think it's what 10,000 a day that people are leaving the workforce of the baby boom generation. Yet, we're not bringing in that same number of workforce.

                

00:17:44 Donald

So, the drain is pulling so hard and it's just making the situation so much worse in nursing. So, I think there's two things. One is we got a problem with low enrollments in career fields or education programs that lead to this career. But we also have this problem with people leaving.

                

00:18:01 Donald

So, this nursing shortage is really created by this pull from both sides. But like you said, is it a problem or is it an opportunity? And I think when we talk about it in a future perspective, this requires us to stop, think about, and reframe how we attract talent and how we retain talent.

                

00:18:20 Donald

And I'll say specifically, this is going to require industry and colleges and education partners to really coordinate. And it gets back to what we were sharing. We have some information and you have some information. But at the end of the day, what we both really want to know is how many people do we need to get through these programs, to land in these jobs, to meet the needs of the community.

                

00:18:41 Donald

And so, that's a piece of it, but I think the other one is, is we have to rethink how we view the traditional work-life. In the sense of we've always had this; you come into an organization, you work, and then you retire, and it's that abrupt. And that, for many years worked because you needed to free up the openings for younger generations to take on the roles and to be gainfully employed.

                

00:19:03 Donald

But that's not the case today. We need the older workers to stay and we also need more newer workers. And so, I think the challenge on the employer side is how do we change their work so that they're interested in staying longer? What does that look like? And how do you partner with the education? Because there's opportunities there.

                

00:19:22 Donald

We know that a lot of people don't want to just abruptly leave, but as an employer, we're often rigid to, well, you need to work the full schedule or retire, but you can't have this like flexible thing. I call it a transition to retirement, which is good for them, but it's also good for us. I think we've got to figure out that.

                

00:19:39 Donald

And then if I circle back to what I originally said with the shortage in the community colleges and not getting the enrollment or the other piece of the puzzle as we all know, is clinicals. And community colleges can train more people but if you don't have a place to do the clinicals, it's not going to work.

                

00:19:54 Donald

And so, there's an opportunity there. How do we use these folks who are getting ready to retire, how do you take those, and maybe they can help with the clinical rotations. Maybe they can help the community colleges with having more educators. There's a way to use their knowledge, skills, and abilities, and their talents that they've accommodated over 40-plus years versus just saying, "Well, here's your retirement gift, I hope you enjoy retirement."

                

00:20:19 Salvatrice

What do you think is that hesitation, Don? Like what do you think is that hesitation on the flexibility piece?

                

00:20:24 Donald

I think it's a hard shift for people to shift from because we're so used to it, it's so ingrained in us over years, but then operationally, people struggle with, I need to have a schedule done and that can be complicated if I have to work around folks.

                

00:20:36 Donald

But I think at the end of the day, you know what, life is going to get more complicated when you don't have anybody either. And so, sometimes, you have to say maybe that's not easy, but it's better than what I have. And I have to adapt to that.

                

00:20:50 Donald

Maybe it takes a little more creativity to do the scheduling, but I think we got to start the conversation sooner rather than later of this population, twofold, how do we get in there? How do we make sure the younger generation says, "Healthcare's the job for me? That's my calling. I want to do it."

                

00:21:06 Donald

And how do we say, hey, maybe you're thinking about retiring and there are days that you think are better than others. And sometimes, you're ready to throw in the towel. But what if we had an opportunity for you to share with the next generation what you've learnt and that be your focal point?

                

00:21:21 Donald

I think there's a lot of complex pieces around it, but we know that from other dynamics, when you take younger generation and older generation folks and you create like a mentor-mentee relationship in there, that you often find that, that younger generation will flourish with that.

                

00:21:36 Donald

And as well, it's also good for the seniors in the community and people who are getting up there to be able to still have that value, feel that worth, and actually make a difference in somebody else's life. And I think it's right in healthcare because that's really what these folks have done their whole career, is help others.

                

00:21:54 Salvatrice

Right. And be of service, and they're already wired that way. Are there other examples that Kaiser is working towards on internal growth? I mean, we talked about bringing in new talent and retaining the talent that is in transition, but what about those kind of in the middle? I'm curious to kind of see like what programs are involved in helping grow and upskill everyone else in between

                

00:22:23 Donald

Salvatrice, this is probably the most important part of the conversation today with that. And I often hear, we talk about talent acquisition and people will say, oh, we want to have an early career initiative and bring in younger people. If that's all you do, you're going to fall short. The math is just not on your side.

                

00:22:40 Donald

More people are leaving than you can bring in. And so, in 2019, we started doing apprenticeships. We have this sterile processing apprenticeship that we do. It's an internal pipeline. We take people who are in housekeeping, environmental services, food services, and we upskill them with a program, give them 600 hours of on-the-job training, then connect them with a mentor in the line of work. We grow our own essentially in there.

                

00:23:03 Donald

There's still room to bring people from outside, yes. The demand is ... you can't do one or the other, you have to do both. It really changed the way we do it. We're now in our fourth cohort. We continued those through the pandemic. We also do upskilling programs for our nurses. We have programs so that they can change specialties. So, if they're just in med surg, but they want to go be a nurse in the ED, like we have a program for them to change that specialty.

                

00:23:28 Donald

We also still had new grad programs. They kind of got paused. And now, we're back with them again to bring in new talent. We also did a wound astronomy care nursing program. Wound astronomy care nurses are so hard to find. It was one of those we identified and said we could keep searching or we can say, "Hey, who do we have that wants to do this?" And our response was really good.

                

00:23:52 Donald

We had challenges during the pandemic with different requirements for people to get into the clinicals. But all in all, we got through it. They've graduated, they got their certifications. They've all transitioned into the work. So, those are a couple, we're always looking for ways to do it because at the end of the day, we also know younger workers are looking for career paths. They want an employer that's invested in their growth.

                

00:24:15 Donald

And I always tell people, they're not just saying it, when they show up, you're going to have a retention problem if you can't show it in action. And so, you have to be doing that with your internal people. Otherwise, when they come in, they're going to be like "They're not doing it for the people who are here, why would they do it for me?"

                

00:24:29 Donald

So, it puts the pressure back on the employer to really make good on developing staff. And the last piece that I would just say to that is, is I have these conversations where managers go "It takes time." Well, you can keep sorting through resumes, scheduling interviews, have people cancel their interviews, and go back to the drawing table over and over again or you can invest a little bit of time in the people who are already here and grow them.

                

00:24:52 Donald

But at the end of the day, the other one is, is I always put out to people, when we talk about improving employee engagement, workforce development, career development is at the core of engagement. Nothing says engagement more than investing in the people you have and giving them an opportunity to grow. That's how you engage people.

                

00:25:12 Donald

It's not just some appreciation luncheon. They have to see it, feel it, live it, experience it every day. And that's the shift that I think we and other employers are starting to realize.

                

00:25:24 Salvatrice

Do you think it's too little too late? Obviously, it's something we should be doing right now.

                

00:25:27 Donald

I think for some, it may be a little too late as far as keeping up with the competition. For us, I look at it and I say, well, we have a foundation, we just need to scale up. We need to make this a way of life. It shouldn't even be a challenge, it should just be the first thing that people think of.

                

00:25:42 Donald

I use the example - I told you we did the sterile processing apprenticeship. We filled internally. That was a job, but that came about because we were having trouble retaining and attracting sterile processing types. To this day, all of them are getting filled internally through our training program.

                

00:25:58 Donald

We still get some that come in from outside, but the majority of them are internal ones. And so, as we face recruitment challenges, that's an example of where if we do it, you have less of a strain because you have a pool of people that you created, but then you can look externally too, but you're not solely reliant on one thing or the other.

                

00:26:18 Salvatrice

For sure. There's so many little like golden nuggets from this conversation, Don. I really appreciate it. I'll tell you what; I really hope that our listener is picking up on those golden nuggets too. Oftentimes, we just said it - we spend so much time concentrating on those who are departing and transitioning out and filling in those gaps. But we spend very little time, sometimes no time into investing in the people that are already here to fill those gaps.

                

00:26:44 Salvatrice

And I love the fact that you said - look, tell me if I got this right; career development, invest in the people, that's how you get employee engagement.

                

00:26:53 Donald

Absolutely, spot on.

                

00:26:54 Salvatrice

These one-off cookies and coffee, and these one-off appreciations, yes, they're helpful. You know, don't get me wrong, but that's not part of culture. So, what I heard was this is part of culture.

                

00:27:07 Donald

Yes. It has to be part of the culture. And I would just share a little bit more on that and it gets a little bit big. I go on the macro level. But I think as we look at how we have a relationship with our employees, traditionally, American businesses, it's transactional.

                

00:27:23 Donald

And what I hear younger generations saying, and what I see in the workforce is they want a relationship. So, managers and leaders have to shift their mind to be it's not a transaction, but it's actually we want a relationship. And with the relationship, a healthy relationship, you get good engagement, you get outcomes, you get people who are committed. And that becomes so critical.

                

00:27:46 Donald

And I will just end with this part saying it's really critical in healthcare because at the end of the day, as I have always said, our employees will treat the patients the way we treat them. And so, we want the members of Kaiser Permanente to be treated well, we have to treat our employees well.

                

00:28:04 Donald

We have to take care of them the way we want them to take care of all of our members, because they're the face of the business. The member-facing people have to realize there's opportunity, there's growth, there's value. And that takes a lot for leadership to get that.

                

00:28:19 Salvatrice

Well, I'll tell you what, we couldn't have ended in a better note, Don. I really appreciate that. This has been absolutely lovely. Thank you again for all of your commitments, and to your commitment to helping us as a system, solve all these opportunities. We thank you very, very much.

                

00:28:34 Salvatrice

I know this is not a one-and-done conversation. I'm sure you and I will be chatting again. If there are audience members that would like to connect with you, what would be the appropriate place or appropriate way to contact you?

                

00:28:45 Donald

They can always connect on LinkedIn. I think you have that piece on there, but you can also email us scal-wfpd@kp.org. Again, that's scal-wfpd@kp.org.

                

00:29:05 Salvatrice

Thank you so much. We'll make sure to put those in the show notes. Don, it's been wonderful. You've got a busy schedule. I want to let you to it. Thanks again. Thank you very much. Have a good day.

                

00:29:13 Donald

No problem. Anytime Salvatrice, have a good one.

                

00:29:16 Salvatrice

Thank you. Thanks.

                

00:29:16 Salvatrice

Thank you for listening to the Future of Work Podcast. Make sure you're subscribed on your favorite listening platform so you can easily get new episodes every Tuesday. You can reach out to us by clicking on the website link below in the show notes to collaborate, partner, or just chat about all things future of work. We'd love to connect with you.

                

00:29:39 Salvatrice

All of us here at the Future of Work and Pasadena City College wish you safety and wellness.